Story Work And Counseling with Kolby Nance

In Season 2 of the podcast I continue to interview health professionals outside of my scope of practice.

Today I had the privilege of interviewing Therapist Kolby Nance.

1) We go over his background and counseling center - Porters Sounds https://www.porterssound.com/

2) What is Story work in counseling? 

3) How are bodies are connected to our stories and what that means for our health 

Transcript

0:07

All right. Well, welcome to the finish hype podcast. And, uh, I'm your host Blake and I'm here with a special guest and, um, someone who's very dear to me and my, my wife. And, um, unfortunately his wife couldn't be here, but, um, Colby, Nance and therapist of, and owner of Porter sound here in Lakeland. Uh, but you are not in Lakeland right now, my friend, where, where are you? And, and tell us a little bit about what you're doing now. These. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Blake. Thanks for having me on. And, um, yeah. Uh, my, my family and I moved to Chattanooga Tennessee about a year ago, um, where we're, you know, practicing up here and, and trying to get our feet under us and get settled in a new city. Uh, we do, uh, I still own Porter sound there in Lakeland. Um, and. Still have a number of active therapists that are practicing in the area, but we're, we're all still trying to build up here in Tennessee. And so it's good to, good to be with. That's awesome. Yeah. So Colby was my counselor, uh, when he was in town and we even did some, I think, remote a little bit. When you, when you were moving, we were kind of still doing a little bit back then. Um, and Maggie, his wife is also, I think co-owner with you and also a therapist and she was, was counseling my wife in just a huge, um, Blessing really, really helpful. Um, and so part of what I'm doing in this season is trying to help, uh, the season of the podcast is trying to help kind of outsource, um, things that are outside of my scope of practice. So if I, someone comes to me and they're struggling with some, with some eating disorders that are outside of my scope of practice, I would, I would refer them to a therapist and, and Colby and me are great people. Yeah. So they're at the top of my list. um, but you know, those kinds of things are, you know, I'm kind of mentioned to the, the listeners as they kind of are tuning into why we're doing this, but let's get to know you a little bit. I wanna, how did Porter sound get started here in Lakeland and what was kind of the philosophy around your, your counseling that you and Maggie set out to, to do. Yeah, thanks. Um, yeah. And just a, a little bit, I'll go back to the beginning, but a little bit of the story now is Maggie's. Um, uh, we, we didn't think that we would take on homeschooling. She's done that. So she's actually transitioned her responsibilities with Porter sound. She still does some counseling within Porter sound, but she's no longer half owner. Um, one of our other therapists that has been with us for a while, she. She's taken over that ownership that Megan used to have. So her and I are partners now, her name's, uh, Jenna, Timmy, she's there in town, which has been super helpful and a big blessing to have her still on the ground. And it's just been better all around. Um, oh, that's cool. But yeah, Megan. Yeah. Yeah, it's been great. Um, Megan and I did, uh, start Porter sound three years ago. Um, we're a little. Little bit past three years now. We're we're currently in our fourth year. Yeah. Wow. Um, it's amazing how much time has gone by since then, but, um, yeah, we started Porter sound because, uh, we kind of had this, um, I, whether unique approach or the specific way that our grad school had had trained us, um, To where, um, the counseling room could be a safe place. Um, mm-hmm for, for people to process any, any kind of season of life and, um, that we would come alongside of them for a season. And a lot of this kind of captured in our name and good, um, some of that our website describes, but, um, essentially that we would, as a Porter would when somebody is going on a hike or really mountaineering, um, a Porter is a local that'll come alongside you for a while and help carry the. Um, I love that. And so work with, yeah, yeah. The, the name, that image kind of really captured us and, um, You know, uh, it's what we saw our role was just to assist, um, to kind of be a, a, a bit of a refuge, um, and, and to kind of bear witness to what was going on in someone's life and, and to create a relationship where they could process things and, um, You know, I, I think Lakeland was growing at the time. Um, it still is, um, ex growing exponentially. And, um, so really quickly as we started that, um, there were a few other counselors from our grad school that started to join us and at some points to commute in. And, um, so now we've got a team of about eight counselors that are there and, um, you know, they're, they're, they're working with a number of people, so, um, Yeah, a little bit about me. I grew up in Tennessee, so it's been a move back home for me. My wife grew up in Florida, which is kind of what put Lakeland on the map. Initially, her parents were there. Um, and, uh, we went to RTS, Orlando, um, to get our, our masters of counseling spent a little bit of time there and, um, You know, really it, it was kind of a, um, a heart for people. And the story that, that God was writing in people's lives that kind of compelled us to go into this work and the way that God used certain people to, um, change our stories. Um, and so that's what kind of moved us down the counseling, um, track mm-hmm and here we are seven years later after after grad school, um, Still going strong. It's been quite a journey. Yeah. That's so still going strong. Yeah. So you stronger on some days weaker on others, but still go. That's that's just, yeah, that's just life, I think. Um, that's right, but I'm not a therapist, so I Hey, you're right. So I heard you say a couple things. Um, and, and one was, you know, you kept saying that you alluding to the word a story, you know, and, and one of the things that Lisa and I experienced a lot with you that, you know, and I had gone to other counselors before, but I felt like this was a big part of our journey together was, was what we called story. Could you describe what that is and kind of what the process of that is. And, and, and yeah. Cause, cause I remember specifically actually, right. Nobody likes winding up in a counseling room typically. That's not, it's like going to rehab like for, uh, for physical therapy. Like that means you got an injury of some sort you don't wanna be there. Yeah. But, um, but I remember you trying to explain to me as we were diving in. um, to like, just some of my story, my upbringing, things like that. And I remember saying, I don't wanna do that. And you, you, winsomely kind of mentioning to me, um, you said, Hey, all we're going to do is we're just trying to figure out where, where you were sinned against. We, we use kind of a Christian term there, you know, wrong sure. In your life mm-hmm And, and then, and then what, what kind of patterns that you chose to survive outta that? With. and then we can discover those and see if we need to still do those or not. And I thought it was just a light bulb moment for me. Um, yeah, that was helpful. But maybe you could allude a little bit more for the audience of, of what that is. Story work and, and how yeah. How you guys kinda use that. Yeah, man, uh, and compliments you. That was just really well said. I think you said it better than I could even there kinda walking backwards, but, um, I think you said a lot of that. Well, yeah. Uh, story work kind of alludes to this narrative of life. Um, That, uh, things don't just happen in a vacuum or overnight. Um, it's kind of this idea that we were formed over a lifetime and the, and the thing that has the greatest forming power is relationships. Mm. Um, typically if you ask someone, um, they will go back to some cornerstone relationships, whether that was parents. Friends coach mentor, someone that typically showed up at, um, it could have been a really painful moment of life, a time where there was high chaos, or it could have been a moment of, of significant delight. Um, but whatever they kind of caught in that relationship, they, um, A little piece of their identity was probably shaped around it. Um, now that could be something you continue to go back to of like, I'm trying to find life here. Um, I remember what it was like to be. Um, the game to be on the line and I hit a home run. I remember what it was like to be, uh, chosen out of a, out of a group. Um, or I, I could remember what it was like to be left out and I, you know, I'd spend lifetime avoiding that. So it's this it's idea that there are these significant stories, longer life that just kinda linger over time. And, and a lot of times we can develop, um, certain relational patterns, um, that become. Coping mechanisms if you will. Um, and relational patterns. I, I think what I mean by that is, um, you know, just over a little bit oversimplified, but, but we, um, could be really, really concerned with what people think of us. So, um, kind of always trying to maintain. Image or always trying to win approval from somebody or that very thing could scare us. And so have a really hard time. We typically stay away that we can go up to a certain point in relationship, but then we can't go further. Mm. Um, And we, we, we might withdraw them some something along those lines. So, uh, I think the way you described it was great normally. Um, and this is all true about my life as well. Um, and, and the role that therapies played in my life of life is kind of going along and then something ends up coming up in an event, um, or things didn't shake out the way that we expected them to, um, uh, disappointment or, um, Whatever it might be. Uh, maybe it's an habitual pattern that we can't seemingly break. Um, and, and then there's a turn to help. Mm. Um, normally it's very symptom focused to begin with when somebody enters therapy, but this idea of story or narrative of, I don't think this just came out of anywhere, you know, it just, it. It probably has a context. It probably has a background. And when you can sit with somebody, who's kind, um, compassionate, curious, like wants to know you more than fix you is a hope there mm-hmm um, and can listen to the stories, stories that you might not, um, I've been thinking about for years. Um, but in, in, in kind of a, a process, um, that over a season, being able to connect why this symptom came up can be really, really helpful to somebody. Um, it can be very orienting. Um, so, um, yeah, the idea of story work is that we've been shaped, um, over time and, um, Often it could be very healing, um, redemptive even to go back and visit some of those stories. Yeah. No, that's so great. As I was, I was just listening to you. I was just, as I was listening to you, I kind of was thinking through, um, you know, why would somebody might be asking the question. you know, why go back and revisit those stories. Some, some of them are, are terrifying. Um, some of them may be painful. Some of them might be joyful, but, um, making that practice of, of maybe, um, trying to kind of, I felt this before, where are other places I felt this before, um, and getting curious about those things, like. What is the, you know, for someone who maybe doubts that as a, as a way that works in the human psyche to kind of release some of the habitual habits that are connected to those narratives, um, what have you seen as kind of like the thing that unlocks that for, for people, and maybe you can't answer that? I don't know, but, um, I'd at least throw that one at you. No, I I'd be, I'd be happy to, um, And some of it, I might not be able to describe that. Well, some of it, it could even be a bit of mystery and just kinda, um, bearing witness that it matters. Um, mm-hmm, one reason. I think it matters to do it in the presence of another person. And, and I think that that can be through a medium of telehealth over a screen. You can see each other's spaces, but you know, even more significantly in person, um, Is that actually by telling a story, um, there is a little sense of reliving it, um, that it's not, and you see this in the work of trauma that a lot of times people will tell stories as kind of data regurgitation. It'll be told very flat emotionally, the first go around. Um, but then when somebody kind of more holistically, um, emotionally revisits a. um, and they do it in front of another person, um, to see another person's response. Mm-hmm, visually to see them connect empathetically to the story. Um, it's orienting, it gives us a sense of not just their insight into it, but actually the way that it triggered someone's O other, some other person's emotions. Is is a little piece of, um, what we may have needed when the story actually happened. Mm. Um, and, and I think that that's really critical then, like who you're choosing to tell the story to matters in that sense. Um, and so I, you know, one other way that I do this besides, um, This is something that I think the, that the arts as well captures. Um, and, and so I I'll go a little bit more into that, but not only telling the story in front of another person and being able to start connecting to the story emotionally from the client's standpoint, but also then seeing. and this doesn't have to be a therapist, but this is kind of where they've spent their study and where they, they hopefully have their expertise and their heart engaged in the right place. So then seeing them empathetically respond to the story mm. Um, can be really, really powerful, but that could be a friend that could be a trusted, um, safe person in your life. Um, but another place where this happens, um, is actually in the engagement of, of. and, and what, what I mean by that is, um, take a look at movies that tell a really good story. And, and just watch this sense of formation that takes place and allow like, just kind of, uh, you know, it's gonna sound like you're probably in a therapist office right now, but just allow yourself to be present to what's going on. There's a couple of them that come to my mind in, in this idea of how, how does story shape someone over time? There was a, a recent movie that was released. Think on apple TV, plus called. Um, yeah, I heard, I heard, I didn't watch a couple. I highly recommend really good. I highly recommend it to anyone. Um, it, it captures so well of how powerful relationships and story, um, are in somebody's identity formation. And I just think it, it displays it beautifully. Um, one that was from some years back, um, the greatest showman, you know, there's, there's. It's a great movie. Um, there's a bit of five to seven minutes only at the beginning that you see him as a child and then why he would become such a dreamer and ambitious man, um, when he is older and like, those are just a little bit of like what starts to capture and then starting to see your life through that lens of story, I think really matters. Hmm. That's so cool. I feel like I was longwinded on that one, Blake. No, no, no, no. I, I, you had so much good stuff there. Um, sorry about that. That's me. Um, so yeah, there's so much I wanna, uh, say here, but you know, counseling and coaching are not the same, but they have some similarities in. I love the, the name and how you described Porter sound and the idea that someone is not the star of the story, but there's someone who is a, a friend along the journey. So I always think of like photo Bains as like the key person. Yeah. Billboard the rings. Right. But like bill bow is, is that right? Bill bow is his buddy who goes with him is kind of like the, he's not the main star, but he's, he's going up the mountain. And then, and then there's one part where he can't go any further. um, like I look at coaching like that, right. The idea that like the really good coaches are really trying to help people become autonomous in their fitness and health. Yeah. And, and I love that you're doing that in counseling. I have, I have seen counselors that have more of a lifelong philosophy that you need to be with me forever. Um, and I've seen coaches do that too, and I'm not trying to put anyone. but I wanna ask you like more on the positive side, what would you say is kind of the reason why you like that and chose that name and what, um, what is the benefit of someone who's saying, Hey, I wanna come alongside you for a season and get you autonomously. Mm-hmm like, and, and Liz and I are testimony to this guys that just this story work stuff really has been something that's cracked the nut for us in areas. Of our lives that we just couldn't talk about. And I'm a pretty, anyone who knows me, I'm a pretty open book for the most part in my life, but there were aspects of my story that I had these feelings and things that would go on in me that were destructive. And I didn't know where they came from or what they were. And so story work really helped me kind of. Track some of those and make some leeway. Um, and I'd love to share a story at the end. That's pretty vulnerable, but just a really great idea of what that looks like. But I said a lot there. I was long winded on that. Yeah. yeah. Well, same. Same for me, Blake. I, you know, I, I. I think I raised my hand to go to grad school and, and to become a counselor before I, um, you know, I had probably done even 10, 20% of the story working within my own heart that I needed do. Um, you know, I, I think there is a relationship. There's a, there's, there's a phrase that got user in grad school. A lot of you can't lead someone farther than you've gone. Mm, that doesn't mean that every single person that's gonna come into counseling, that their therapist has gone through the same thing they have. Um, but I think what it does mean is that they've engaged their own suffering to the similar degree that they're asking their client to engage theirs. Um, so, you know, part of even what's captured in that name that you said you, you really liked is that, um, this is a trail we've traveled down before. within our own hearts within our own issues. And so, um, there's, there's nothing, um, more off putting than, than I think coming into an expert's office that feels distant and cold. Um, in the sense of like, um, Sring that, you know, well, just try these few things and, and I don't really know what it feels like to, um, Suffer to go through what you're going through. Mm. Um, now of course, uh, therapy and counseling is, is the time is focused on the client. It's not about the therapist, but a sense of like, um, you, you feel like you're going through it with somebody, um, that understands somebody that, um, has also engaged their own heart. Not that they're using that time for it, but that they are. Um, not a cold disembodied guide. Um, mm-hmm, that? Um, so, you know, I think several things are kind of captured in that image. Um, that being one of them that mm-hmm um, you know, not asking a client to do something, um, Where you, you haven't gone before and, and done, done the work within your own heart as a therapist. Uh, another thing in that is that it's not the therapist process as much as it is the client's process. Yeah. Um, and so I, I liked your words, but this sense of, um, you know, from a lot of standpoints, Kind of keeping the, the onus and the pre of healing on the client. Um, and, and the therapist being available as, as walking alongside. Um, yeah. There's um, I can't remember if I'm missing something in that, but yeah. Um, yeah, those are, those are the things that immediately come to mind. That's great. I, I. I love it. I, I felt safer around you when you said that to me, that, you know, this is kind of like our style and philosophy. Um, and, and I wanna share that for the listeners so that as they think about, you know, choosing a counselor, if this is where they want to go for their, some of their help, uh, that you know, that to me made me feel more safe because it made me realize this person doesn't want me to, to, to latch onto them. They're they're here to. Healthy. Um, and, and so mm-hmm and some of that comes out in my own story of feeling like people wanting me to latch on. So, um, what, yeah. You know, so one of the things I would like to to say just for, for listeners is kind of like, as we talk about story work, and I think that was a big thing I wanted to share, cuz it's a huge, I think, philosophy of what you guys do. Um, you know, I remember one story. Well, first off, one thing you said to me that was really, really good was I said, man, it's so such hard work to think, you know, I felt so exhausted after our meetings and I I'm, I'm a fairly fit guy. You know, I've done some pretty strenuous workouts and I'm more tired after an hour of counseling than I am. After a, an hour of working out. Um, and I need to just like me and my wife would just call each other after our sessions and just be like, I'm, I'm utterly exhausted. Oh, what, what did you guys go over? I just don't have the energy to talk about it. uh, so, so, so it is normal to feel that kind of exhaustion, I would think at least in my me and my wife's, um, experience. Yeah, but, but one of the things you said was, it's just not the work of thinking, but the work of feeling, and that really stood out to me, cuz I think I, I quoted Henry Ford, like, you know, the hardest work there is, is thinking and you said, well, I would say the hardest work there is, is thinking and then feeling what you're thinking. And I thought, oh yeah, that is really hard. um, yeah, why that matters and, and I'll, I can only say this from my own experience was I can remember. And this is a fairly vulnerable thing that I'm fine with sharing. But, uh, I remember that I went to an event and, and I had cracked a joke around a friend who didn't think it was funny and something very simple. And I remember in that event feeling very anxious afterwards and then leaving and going home and still feeling anxious and feeling like it overwhelms me to where I couldn't be present with my kids or my wife, and had to, to kind of go for a walk and think. Everything. And I had been with you probably for about eight months at that point. And when I got home, I could talk to my wife and I realized that the same feeling of that anxiety and, and I had like a fear of abandonment in that conversation of just cracking a joke that didn't land well. And in that I realized it was this exact same feeling that I had. I traced it all the way back to in first grade. And this might sound really weird to some of our listeners, but this was my story. And it really, it was really helpful. Um, and I remember in first grade feeling my mom and my first grade teacher talking in front of me about if I was smart enough to stay in first grade or have to be pulled out and, and remember feeling the powerlessness of watching them talk in front of me and feeling like, what do I need to do? How do I need to perform to. and so, and then I could, and then I just weed, I just started crying to my wife as I shared this, cuz I never cried in first grade over it. And I never appropriately felt it, uh, like that fear or could express it. And it made me realize that the joke, the not landing, my friend had nothing to do with the reality of that. I had created habits of just having to perform in certain situations. And when I did not. This overwhelming fear of just not belonging and things like that. And how after that was released. I, I really, um, it's not that I never struggle with it, but I'm very familiar with it now. Yeah. I know how to express it. I know how to like see it, where it used to be. Just like, um, I would say it felt like somebody was hitting me in the dark and I didn't know where it was coming from. Um, so yeah, and I, I think that's what we're trying to share here with our audience is that you start to learn some of those skills that. And listen, I'm, I'm fine. You know, I'm, you know, if you have to go into like the Manliness thing, like I'm, I'm a pretty fit guy. I benched 300 pounds. I'm not afraid to share some of that stuff, but like, this has nothing to do with that macho stuff. It's really about more. Of how people work. And so we have these stories that linger in us, and I feel like, um, taking some time to reflect is huge. And that's why even at the end of my sessions with my clients, we go for a walk to just process the whole workout. What, what, what went well? Yeah. What, what did not go well? How are you feeling? You know, what would you like to do better? And I just think that set time a reflection and, and even doing. A four minute story work walk after the workout is really beneficial. Yeah. It's actually one of my client's favorite parts of meeting with me. that's awesome. I love it. Yeah. So, so, you know, I, I would just say all that to encourage that this stuff really has been a huge blessing to, to me and my wife. And, um, and that, um, just a practical example of that. But if you wanna add anything to that, um, you know, as we get ready to kind of conclude. I'd love to hear some of your, your wisdom. Oh man. Well, that's, that's just, uh, you know, a little bit speechless, I guess, at how well it was set of, um, and deeply resonate. Um, you know, as you're sharing a bit of your story there and, and can think through things in, in my life that, you know, still, um, in, in so many ways, um, Anxious over performing or, um, mm-hmm, where that shows its head of, um, popping up at unexpected places and things like that. But, um, yeah, you know, I. Uh, there were a few things that came to mind just quickly as you were, as you were talking about that of, um, I, I don't know if I'm, I'm doing something that's outta bound here. If you reference another podcast while on a podcast, I dunno if that's kosher or not, but totally fine. Totally fine. You know, one, I think you're doing a phenomenal job with this play and I'm like, man, I wanna listen to some of the other episodes after we're, um, done here. Appreciate it, uh, a guy named, yeah, no, you know, specifically more in my world of over this, you know, just yeah. Counseling, uh, a guy named Adam Young has done a lot of really good work and interviewed a lot of, um, people that have contributed greatly to the, to the work in this field, uh, is podcast is called the place. We find ourselves on a recommended often. Um, but he defines empathy as the feeling. As feeling felt like another person feeling and, and even kind of, as you went through a story and you were processing it with your wife, you began to feel for this younger part of yourself. Mm. And so even as you revisit that story, you were feeling for that younger part of yourself, um, Immensely powerful. And that's kind of captured in that. It's not just thinking, but it's feeling it's actually, um, recapturing some of the emotional experience and story. Um, that really matters. Uh, if I were to take one minute and, and, and like bridge the worlds a little bit of like, um, Would love to just think that, that these memories or these stories are something that's just filed in a cognitive filing cabinet somewhere in our mind. Um, but the immense research without going way into it right now that it's actually stored within our bodies and, and somatically and, um, That, you know, you were talking about the experience of anxiety that we, we actually physically feel that in so many different ways. Oh yeah. Um, those can often be the gateways into where some of these stories are, are stored. Mm-hmm And so I think that there's this beautiful integration, um, that it's not just physical health, mental health, but this idea of wholeness that. Um, uh, you know, the practice of physical care, bodily care, um, attending to the different ways that our bodies respond to certain things can be the avenues to so much of what we're talking about. Wow. And they have kind of this mutual sense of healing, um, you know, uh, of, um, I don't think you can access some of these stories or sometimes you can't access the physical health cause of some of these stories that have mm-hmm um, somewhat held, held your body captive to some different sorts of ways and, and, and that's really not doing it justice. Um, no, I, I know exactly what you're talking about. I, I, I, one of the things we we do here when I work with clients is we go through kind of. I say six key things to your health and fitness. And if you do these six things really well, you know, you're gonna seek great results, but one of the six is stress management and that's the one that everyone looks at me and kind of like is like, what, what are you talking about? And it's so difficult. Um, in that one, it's the most difficult out of the six, right? So if I'll list the other five, right? So it's, you work out three days a week with some weights, you walk, you walk and you stay moving eight to 10,000 steps a day, drink your water, get your sleep, um, and eat enough protein. And then if you do the plus manage your stress, people will, um, people will get really great results when they're like, well, what do you mean by manage stress? And then, and I'll try to use examples. I'm like, well, you know, do you watch the news late at. And they're like, yeah, but that doesn't stress me out. And what, what I, what I have to have, what I need to get better at as a coach is trying to help explain how people, when they watch stressful things or talk about stressful things that their body is actually feeling those things very similar that's yeah. To actually doing physical stress and that your hormones can't actually tell the difference between the two they, so your cortisol will release. Like I used the example of, if you jump out of an airplane and you go parachute jumping, right, your hands will sweat and you're moving. If you think about it for a long enough time, your body will start sweating and your heart will go up as if you're doing it. Um, so there's an amazing thing about our brains that connect those two things. And so the imagination, you know, that we have as humans is, is a very powerful thing, but it needs to be managed. Um, and you're. Yeah, that's well said. And, um, even some of the ways that we carry, uh, not just the stimuli in a present day, since, but past stimuli that there's certain triggers that, that remind us of that. And it's not simply, um, maybe it wasn't just this moment, a joke, not landing with a friend, as you said, your story there. Um, but it's. It's the stress carried from this previous period of life that just got ignited by this one thing. And, but now I'm feeling the weight of what was before and all that I would say brings on stress of love the way you said that, like our hormones are neurotransmitters. They can't tell the difference. They're, they're firing just the same in our bodies. Go into that same response. And so. Gosh, well said, Blake. Um, thanks for sharing that story. Um, yeah, I know that that takes a lot of courage just to put something like that out there. And so, um, well, I appreciate it. You, you and you, and, uh, you and Macy helped me help figure out how to share my story. So I appreciate that. Um, well, real quick, if people wanted to find you or. Porter sound and their local in Lakeland or in Chatanooga. Yeah. What are some of the ways that we can link them towards you to get the help they need? Absolutely. Um, probably most efficient way is our website. Um, Porter sound.com. Um, so there's, uh, two S's in the middle is what I'll always tell it, but it's, Porter's sound, um, porters, but going to Porter sound.com. That'll have a phone number. It'll have just a, an inquiry page that that could be filled out, but that's the best way to get in touch with us. Awesome. Well, I really appreciate you coming on the podcast. Um, please tell your wife, uh, Lisa and I said, hello and appreciate her and her work. And, um, hope you guys enjoy Tennessee. And, and I'll be jealous in a couple months when it's fall and it's still 90 degrees here. So, um, well man, I really mean it. Thanks for having me on. And, and it was, it was just good. Fun. I really appreciate that. Absolutely good catching up with you. Yeah. And I will have the website in the link, so people, if you're curious about finding that on the podcast, it'll be attached in the link. So thanks for joining us. Thanks Colby. All right. Thanks..